Interview/Between E. G. White and A. T. Jones
NP
August 15, 1903
Previously unpublished.+
[Stenographer's introduction:]
(Sister White asked Elder Jones to tell her the object of the small general meetings he was holding in the California Conference, and to explain in regard to the calls he was making for means to pay the debt on the College buildings in Battle Creek. Elder Jones explained that he had been asking our brethren and sisters to contribute to the missionary acre fund by setting apart the proceeds of small portions of their land, or certain trees, for this purpose. Sr. White urged that he be very cautious about undertaking to raise any means in California to assist in reopening the Battle Creek College; that this means is needed in California. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 1
Elder Jones endeavored to explain why such a school as the one about to be opened in Battle Creek, is necessary. The States of Illinois and New York require a high standard of those who desire to enter a medical college. As the American Medical Missionary College is incorporated under the laws of the State of Illinois, those who enter our medical college must first conform to the requirements of the State Board of Health of Illinois, which are really more exacting than those of the Board of Regents of New York. The State officials have placed the requirements for entrance as high as those necessary for entrance in some of the leading medical schools of Great Britain. “Dr. Kellogg himself,” Elder Jones declared, “could not enter these schools as a medical student.”) 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 2
Mrs. E. G. White: Is there any necessity for this? 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 3
(From here on the report is stenographic.)
A. T. Jones: When he began his medical studies, the entrance requirements were not so high as they are now. When our brethren go to foreign countries to practice, they find difficulty in meeting the requirements of the law. Now it is so arranged that they can enter in any other country. Last winter, the first of January, the medical Board of Regents of New York State enacted laws—decided that everyone who enters the medical course of that Association must bear the degree of Bachelor of Arts. Berrien Springs does not grant degrees, and others of our Colleges do not grant degrees. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 4
Mrs. E. G. White: Then because of this, you go right to Battle Creek, and establish there something that the Lord has forbidden? 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 5
A. T. Jones: No. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 6
Mrs. E. G. White: You have gone right to Battle Creek and established that thing. Get out of Battle Creek; for heaven's sake get out of Battle Creek! 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 7
A. T. Jones: Since Battle Creek College has moved to Berrien Springs, there has been a school in the Sanitarium. The Sanitarium has had a school since Battle Creek College moved out of Battle Creek. And while Battle Creek College was in Battle Creek, one hundred and sixty of the Sanitarium folks were students in Battle Creek College—the Sanitarium medical students and the Sanitarium helpers. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 8
Mrs. E. G. White: All this reaching up toward a worldly standard, is unnecessary. When Christ came into the world as our Teacher, He chose unlearned men as His disciples. It is not necessary for our youth to spend so many years in training, unless they have to do certain lines of work. With far less training than is often given, they could become fully as competent in missionary lines, and do the work that God wants them to do. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 9
You have no need now, at the very close of this earth's history, to gather young men and young women together, and to spend precious time in getting all this education in the higher branches of study—an education that we have never before advised our youth to gain since we accepted the truth. In the past much has been said, even with boasting, in regard to what “we have done,” and in regard to the efficiency of our medical missionary workers; but now it is thought that we are under the necessity of obtaining a knowledge such as the world demands. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 10
In the name of God, I say, go and work along the same lines along which we have worked heretofore; and carry on this work outside of Battle Creek. Do not establish anything more there. Let the Doctor take care of his large institution, with the great crowd of worldly people there. You do not want our youth brought into connection with these worldly influences. If any additional training-school is demanded, let it be established outside of Battle Creek—a place where God has specified that we should not have a College. If it were essential to establish one there, God would have known all about it before He told us to move away from Battle Creek. Such a school is not essential. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 11
God can open a way, and no man can shut it. He has said, “I have opened a way, and no man can shut it.” This is the way God desires to work. You need not call in our young men and confine them in a school to learn all these things that they will never use after they become physicians. If they have closed the doors, so that somebody has no influence, somebody else will come in. God will give influence. We must have more confidence in the God of heaven. But the Doctor has been swinging out of line <for years>. He has denied that our sanitariums are denominational institutions, and has denied many other things. God has been greatly dishonored. If we choose, we can tread in the footsteps of the world. John the Baptist was the greatest prophet that was ever born of woman, and yet he never went near the high Jewish people to get access to them, or to study in their schools. He had his message from God. This is what we must have. We must not think that we are to tread in the path in which the world treads. No; if we had done this in the past, we never could have gained the influence that we now have. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 12
A. T. Jones: Is it right that we should have a medical college? 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 13
Mrs. E. G. White: I do not know what you mean by a “medical college.” 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 14
A. T. Jones: Is it right that we should graduate physicians? 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 15
Mrs. E. G. White: In some cases it is right. Some of our people have gone to other institutions to take a medical course. With the influence that now exists in Battle Creek, with the class of people that the Doctor has now, and with the standard of principle to which he now holds, our youth might just as well obtain a medical education in some worldly school. Sacred things must not be brought down to a level with common things; common fire must not be used in the place of sacred fire. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 16
Satan does not desire that there shall be in the world a people denominated by God, a people that have come out from the world, wholly separating themselves from its theories and practices, and living in accordance with the principles of righteousness. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 17
The Doctor sold us as people. His colleagues are united with him in these things. I know where I stand. I do not know what is to be done to bring about a right condition of things. In this effort to break down the differences between God's people and the world, he has greatly hindered the progress of the third angel's message. By his convincing and devising and planning and underhand work, by his binding up medical institutions to one general organization, he has done much to delay the work of proclaiming to every land the gospel of Jesus Christ, which would have placed us in the position where God desires us to stand today. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 18
If students desire to study the higher branches; if some are led by the Holy Spirit to attend institutions of learning; if God sends to them the message, “Go,” let them attend such schools. The Lord will give them light and blessing. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 19
Our schools will have to be more after the order of the schools of the prophets. This was revealed to me when young Brother Stone came to Battle Creek. Again and again I had to stand before public assemblies to repeat the warnings God was sending to us. At that time some of our brethren thought that the students must receive a worldly training that God does not want them to receive. God does not want the youth to be encouraged to study many of the things that the world requires the students of its schools to study. When He wants them to do it, He will let them know it. They can study at the plough, while engaged in some useful employment. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 20
* * * * *
[Stenographer's note:] (This is as far as I have had opportunity to edit this interview. The following is a synopsis of remainder, just as it was spoken.)
We don't need the commendation of these that do not know what true education is. We do not want their vamp. God is going to give us His Holy Spirit to enlighten our understanding—it is presented to me in this way—and yet we are now going on our back tracks, clear back, just about as we are getting ready to enter into the land of Canaan. It is to have here a work to hinder from going in—the crimes, and the murders, and all these things that are going on. We have something else to do, Brother Jones. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 21
A. T. Jones: Yes. Now what I was saying: Since Battle Creek College has moved out of Battle Creek, the Sanitarium had had a school for its workers, with the same ones that were in Battle Creek before Battle Creek College left. As I was saying, we had 160 students of the Sanitarium helpers [who] were students of Battle Creek College when it was there. When it went out, that school went right on, with one of the College teachers with the school, and taking other teachers to help him; and that school was preparing such of the helpers that were in the Sanitarium for the medical course. That school was a preparatory course for the medical and nurses’ courses. That school would have gone on just exactly in the same way, if the laws regulating medical work and the work of physicians in the States had remained as they were. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 22
Mrs. E. G. White: What have they done to change their ideas? 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 23
A. T. Jones: The laws have raised the standard, and required a degree. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 24
Mrs. E. G. White: Let us let them raise a standard and require a degree; and let our people do the best they can, just as Christ did. He would rather work for fishermen than learned men that knew so much. When these men get up there and learn what the world wants them to learn, they are not fitted for our work. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 25
A. T. Jones: We are not obliged to teach them what the world wants them to learn; we can teach them our own education, and prepare them in Christian lines. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 26
Mrs. E. G. White: Right in Battle Creek, where God says, Get out of it! 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 27
A. T. Jones: In the Sanitarium; that is all. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 28
Mrs. E. G. White: Yes; and there is the Sanitarium that was worked and built right there. It never should have been there. <Thus the Lord hath said.> Now that is to counterwork the work of God that He wants done. He has told Dr. Kellogg over and over, and I have got it all in writing, that God did not want that institution in any way to spread itself as it was, but make plants. How many plants has he made? [He was] to take that institution, and break it up, not be in Battle Creek, and not have his work going on there in the way that it is, but make memorials all around. But now he has settled right down to Battle Creek and put everything in Battle Creek College. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 29
A. T. Jones: In the minutes of the meeting where this thing was arranged—and that motion was made by Dr. Kellogg himself— 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 30
Mrs. E. G. White: Why did they not get the voice of those brethren that have been working and working, and taking all this burden there? Why did they not sit right down, why did they not lay everything all out, why did they not bring in all their reasons, why did they not go to work just as we always went to work, together, when my husband and I had to go as pioneers? We brought it in so that everything could be understood by everyone, the meaning of the thing, and what we were doing, and carry the whole with them, and to pray over it, and talk over it, and talk with God about it, and all this. But all at once it springs up! 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 31
A. T. Jones: No; this thing was talked over, two years ago. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 32
Mrs. E. G. White: Oh, but the institution has gone since two years ago; and God has shown by that, there have been things done in two years, since two years ago, Brother Jones; and since two years ago makes a lot of difference, when light has come in, and how these places should be worked, and all these ministers. Here's a work that ministers—you will have to do, if you stand in the counsel of God; and here's a work that the medical missionaries will have to do, if we stand; and at the heart of the laws in the nation there has got to be a light shine forth; and to bind up things in this one and that one, and that location. We have got our ministers that are circulating around, and they are going to St. Louis, and Orleans, and they are going to New York City, and they are going to all these places to give the decided warning. That is what we have got to do, and if anything can be done that the enemy can work to keep us huddled down to Battle Creek, where they have been told to get out of it <for years>, and to keep right where they can not affect the community at all—I suppose there are some outsiders that will come in, that will be affected; but <Dr.> Kellogg can not carry that; he has got that great big thing there; that institution never should have been built, never should have been built. But he has built it, and now you see it is to get them right back in Battle Creek, where God has been warning them for the last twenty years, more than that, I guess. The Lord has been showing them what they were doing; they were backsliding. Those that were a strength to the little churches out in different places, could have established schools in these different places, and could have established <small> sanitariums in our cities all through in different places all around here, <but there is> nothing. New York [was] not touched, till poor Brother Haskell went in there, and went to work there, and he has had nothing to work with. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 33
[Stenographer's note:] (Followed by a long account Haskell's financial perplexities, and Sr. White's financial straits on account of low royalties, etc.) 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 34
Kellogg has fastened himself to the world, and in more ways than one. When they asked him about the Testimonies, right before him, just as you are before me, there would be a motion of the head, there would be a motion of the shoulders ... there would be—that was enough. He knows it. And so in regard to me, he has placed me in the position I am, after exalting the position that he has done in his writings of my husband and myself, and my husband taking him just as he did, and letting him have a thousand dollars without interest, and then giving him a horse and a carriage. I did not know he had given him a horse and a carriage. I did not know he had given him a horse and the carriage; and, said he, he has let me have lots of presents; and, said he, “I sent you a horse,” and I sold him a carriage for $150 because I was in debt in the office, when they let my books drop and I did not have a thing for it, and sold it to him for $150. Well, then he sent it back to me after he felt that God was in the work, and he and his brother were deeply convicted. “Why,” says he, he came in, “Oh,” he says, “I am a free man.” Dr. Kellogg would say, “I am a free man. I feel as though a band of steel was broken off of <my head>,” and said he, “My brother sat by me, crying, the tears streaming down <his> face. ‘Why,’ says he, ‘she talks by the spirit of inspiration, the inspiration of God is upon her.’” 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 35
Well now, he could have carried that work right along, but he wanted Kellogg to stand higher <than any other man>, and he has been working and conniving, and working and conniving, and he is at it still. Now there is just how it is. Twice I was <wheeled from my> bed in Oakland. I determined to bring it all out before the people—not all, but a few; but just as soon as I saw that the companies were just <before me> so that I could not be by myself, I would not open my lips. I kept still. And I know just how these things are. I knew the devil was linking with him, and I told you, <A. T. Jones,> not to put that message in his hands alone, but to take and read it to him, because if it was in his hands, and he read it alone, there would be a hand put right on those things so that he would not get the impressions that he had to have. Well, it was shown me that the devil had calculated to link right in with him, and demerit the ministers, just as he has done. And the ministers have just as much cause to demerit it. If any man needs to be converted in more respects than one, it is John Kellogg. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 36
And now I want you to know these things, because I don't want you to be linked up there. So the light God gave me was when you were there in Battle Creek, [was] that you had no business there. It was no place for you. You must get out of Battle Creek; and that there were places where you could go. But he (A. T. Jones, I think she means) needs to be—the light was given—he needs to be where there are watchful eyes in the Spirit of God that shall give counsel—he counsel with you, and you counsel together. That was just the light that was given to me, that <A. T. Jones's> voice would be heard in Washington, and that Brother Prescott's voice would be heard in Washington; that is before we decided to go there. That was long ago. And then that these messages had got to come before the principalities and powers of our nations, <the truth would have> to come before them, that they would be without excuse; but they have excuse now. We have not brought the light before them as we should. We have no memorial there. And all these things, night after night, and night after night, ... and they are all wondering how it is possible for me to do as I do. Well, I tell you, that it is not possible; that it is the Lord that has strengthened me; at my age he is strengthening me. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 37
I thought I should lose my eyesight, but by the blessing of God I kept it. And I know what I am talking about. Dr. Kellogg is not right in the sight of God. <He denies the principles of truth.> I want to tell you that. And yet I would not bring out anything that would get the people to grasp and demerit and tread underfoot anything of the medical missionary work. <That is why I have not declared publicly Dr. Kellogg's position.> 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 38
“Now Dr. Paulson,” I said to him, “I want to say a word to you. I shall not say much that I could say, but I want to warn you, Dr. Paulson, be careful how you give encouragement to Dr. Kellogg by receiving what he says, <he dropping a word> derogatory in regard to our ministers. Be careful of that.” He is picking up everything he can find that he could make a handle of if [note by stenographer: (I could not hear)] and is getting it all prepared. A man that will stand to be a medical missionary in that holy office of Jesus Christ, and then make his boast that he knows, he knows about these ministers, and this minister and that minister, and other ministers. I could tell him some things that I know, that have never come out of my lips, that he had not best take that position. He says, “Just as soon as they begin to make some kind of a move, I have got the power in my hands.” He told Elder Wilcox that. Elder Wilcox said “Would you use such things as that?” Said he. “Would you come to such a position as that? Have you come to such a position as that?” The Doctor answered, “Oh, I don't calculate to do any such thing.” 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 39
Is that man under the influence of the Spirit of God, that goes in that way? Now I want to tell you, Brother Jones, we have got to have our eyes opened, and anointed with eye salve, that we may see. And here I have been shown years ago that there have come just such actions as was in the courts of heaven, repeated right here upon earth, that the devil would link right in with men that profess to believe the truth, and the deceptions that should be brought in, and the evil working that it would create, that Satan was here in person, right here. It has been represented to me in our meetings that individuals have been seen that I have been shown that the devil was linked arms right with; they could not hear alright. Those very persons I shall write personally to, and I shall tell them these things when I get where I can, that the sins that have placed them just as it is in Zechariah, where Joshua was before the angel. Well, now, the devil personifies himself. They don't understand, but he is right there, and he is accusing them, accusing. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 40
I have not dared to see him [Dr. Kellogg]. I was forbidden to see him, because my sympathies were so great in his behalf that there was danger of my taking the words from his lips, and he would repeat anything that comes into his mind that will help his case—no truth in it; he will go right on another occasion, and he will tell just exactly the opposite. He doesn't know what he does. He has no control of himself. Now I want to tell you that, and I want you to know it, Brother Jones, because somehow you feel linked up with him, and you feel that you are going to be a help to him. If he doesn't get the start of you, and if he is not chuckling over this matter now, as the devil would chuckle when he would get one of the angels in heaven to believe his lies—he would lie just as quick as he would speak the truth, in order to carry any purpose of his—Dr. Kellogg would; and yet I am looking for his conversion. I am begging and pleading. I wake up nights, and plead for his conversion. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 41
A. T. Jones: You know, don't you, that that is all the purpose of my going there? 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 42
Mrs. E. G. White: Well, I supposed it was; but I want to say, he will wind up this one and that one and the other one with him in what?—in Battle Creek. God has said that this thing should not be; it has been before him for ten years. I have got it right in writing that he should be making plants. God did not want so much there, and so on. Now I have got a decided letter—I want you to have that—Maggie just brought it to me yesterday—that I had put in her hands some time ago. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 43
A. T. Jones: He never asked me first. It was not his first asking me to come there—my mission to help the students and to help that school. [Stenographer's note:] (I do not understand this sentence fully. Have written it as I have it.) 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 44
Mrs. E. G. White: When he saw that you were more favorable to him than Daniells or Prescott, when he saw that, he thought he could make [stenographer's note:] (did not hear next two or three words, but from conversations with Sr. W., think the words were “a cat's paw”) of you. That is what he thought. He thought he could put you on his side. Daniells, standing as he did stand in Europe, it was perfectly right. He told me, “Oh, Daniells is just the man. Oh,” said he, “I am so thankful for Daniells”; and he went on and gave me such a history of Daniells. “At first, you know, I would not take to him at all.” Just as soon as he [A.G.D.] did not concede to his idea there [in England], he threw him right overboard, and that is how it is. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 45
A. T. Jones: All that I have had in connection with the medical work there, was to help those students to get hold of the Bible and the third angel's message, so that when they went out, they would preach it. Whatever warnings you have, I would be glad of them, so that when I was there, I would know how to hold my way. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 46
Mrs. E. G. White: I have given this to yourself. You need not give it away to anybody. But I tell you, that if any man was ever led and controlled by the spirit of the devil, it is Dr. Kellogg, as he gives himself up into the hands of the enemy. Now he could have just as well carried on that reformation line, and cleared himself. He felt terribly after my husband's death. It was his course of action that shortened my husband's life. I do not want to say anything about that. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 47
A. T. Jones: I will have to start to meeting pretty soon; but I wanted to mention that this use of the Battle Creek College title can last at the most for only a year. It was taken simply because the Battle Creek College charter continues and expired the next year; and instead of going to the expense of legally revising the college charter, we would let it expire. That was simply availed of for this single year, and by the time that expires, all the light that can come, we can avail ourselves of, and act accordingly. At the most, the name will be used for only a year. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 48
Mrs. E. G. White: But, I wanted to speak to you about gathering up money here. I did not once dream you would do it, because I knew you knew how much we wanted to build a sanitarium, and I knew you knew about the heavy debt they have got here that has got to be taken care of here, and I am trying to get plans by which that should not lay on that institution. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 49
A. T. Jones: I have had it in mind myself that money enough had been taken now outside of California; but now turn the money to our own work. But this one thing of the missionary acre fund of donations of pieces of ground or trees or something of that kind in little doles, to the payment of the College property, to turn it over to the medical missionary work—that was arranged by the brethren in Battle Creek. That is the only thing that I have asked for money outside of California. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 50
Mrs. E. G. White: Well, don't ask for any more. They have scoured over this field until there is almost a dearth. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 51
A. T. Jones: Now here is another thing. The Doctor offers half of the proceeds on his new book, The Living Temple, for the payment of the Sanitarium debt here. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 52
Mrs. E. G. White: Well, I have nothing to say about that. I have not had opportunity to look into the book. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 53
A. T. Jones: It sells for a dollar and a quarter. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 54
Mrs. E. G. White: I know it; but it strikes me the book could be more precious, if it was all correct. It would be most precious, if the man would live alright. The living temple—oh, my soul, Brother Jones, I tell you, if the man would live up to just what he has written! There is the thing. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 55
A. T. Jones: Well , now, he offers the use of that here for the Sanitarium, just as the Object Lessons is offered. Half go to the original Sanitarium, and the other half to this one. A number of our brethren in Humboldt county said they would work for that. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 56
Mrs. E. G. White: Yes; but everything that they have got to do here. Sadler came up here, and you know how it was—were you here when he called for money? Well, he called for money, and there they were in distress for things that they needed to put right into the institution, that they could not put there; but yet you know why. Brother Butler came, and took away a large amount for the Southern field; and then something else comes, and it keeps coming and coming. 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 57
All I want is for you not to exalt and not teach what Dr. Kellogg does. Oh my soul! Such contriving, such conniving, and then bringing it out in a way that he does. Then his threatening—“You say anything against me”—he said there at Oakland—“and,” said he, “I will have you put over the courts.” Did Christ do that way? Now there is all such ways as that. “I have got things in my pocket,” said he, “that I can use here if I want to.” Well, what faith can men have of any such men as that being led of the Lord? I told him [stenographer's note:] (must be A.G.D.), “Don't you go into any tears at all; when you speak, speak; when you take a position, take a position; but don't assail the man. It is not he; it is the devil back of him. You may say, ‘Somebody said so and so,’ if you want to, but don't you touch the man, because he knows he can be touched in a good many places.” 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 58
[Stenographer's note:] (There were a few more sentences interchanged, but I did not take them, and know not what they were. Elder Jones said he thought he might come down again to see Sister White.) 18LtMs, Ms 195, 1903, par. 59