Ms 82a, 1901

Interview/With Dr. and Mrs. Sanderson

“Elmshaven,” St. Helena, California

August 25, 1901

Variant of Ms 82, 1901. +^{NoteOne or more typed copies of this document contain additional Ellen White handwritten interlineations which may be viewed at the main office of the Ellen G. White Estate.}

Report of Interview of Dr. and Mrs. A. J. Sanderson with Mrs. E. G. White, 7 a.m. August 25, 1901.

Mrs. E. G. White: Now you may present what you have upon your mind.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 1

Dr. A. J. Sanderson: I want to emphasize the ideas that I had relative to the education and training of our helpers, and what I thought that the work ought to be. It has been my conviction in all my work that every effort that was made would be purely a matter of education, either with the patients or the helpers; that the only consistent way to get them to change their course is to educate them so that they can see the reason for it, and do it by their own free will. In our family things will come up that will need discipline, and it seems to me that the more we educate, the less we will have to discipline; and to discipline without educating, it seems to me, is more a destructive work than an educative work.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 2

Sister White: I thought that was understood in our work all the way through.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 3

Dr. Sanderson: Yes; but there is a great deal of difference in the way different people go at it.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 4

Sister White: While we know that the helpers must receive an education, yet there is to be an enforcement of the rules of the institution, or else there will be a broken up, distracted state of things, which must not be allowed. There must be discipline connected with the education. Education is good, yet in such an institution discipline is decidedly necessary.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 5

Dr. Sanderson: I am sure there should be discipline, but it has to be done with the educational work.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 6

Sister White: It should be all woven together. The discipline should come in connection with the education. The discipline and the precept go together.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 7

Dr. Sanderson: Yes, I think that is true. But I think when you undertake to discipline without educating, when you undertake to change the course of a helper without getting him to see the reason why you are doing it, you always make it worse, and do not accomplish anything.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 8

Sister White: Well, we do not do that. We tell them why.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 9

Dr. Sanderson: I think that that has been the greatest source of our difficulty up there. I have always tried to work on those lines, and I think that the difficulties in the management have come from that more than anything else.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 10

Sister White: It comes as the result of a lack on both sides. If you do not make the education of sufficient force and value to ensure its being carried out, it does not amount to anything. Then too, there is a lack, if they are given the “You must” and “You shall” without the education. As you will see when the educational book comes out, I have had laid open before me these things. The education that is given does not amount to anything, unless it is carried out by practical obedience and service.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 11

Dr. Sanderson: No, it is no good, except they carry it out; but often it takes line upon line, and precept upon precept, in order to get them to carry out the education they receive.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 12

Sister White: We know that, because we have met these questions in our educational institutions, especially in Avondale.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 13

Dr. Sanderson: I do not think that you can look upon educational work in our institutions—in our sanitariums, and among our patients—in the same way that you can in our schools where we are dealing entirely with young people and children.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 14

Sister White: I am speaking of education along medical missionary lines of work, as well as in our schools; but the principle is the same. Even in the family there must discipline. I took up this question during our recent camp meeting at Los Angeles. Discipline begins with the educator; for he or she should be properly trained. Then, as teachers in their own family, they are to see that the rules are not disobeyed, because if disobedience be allowed, disobedience to God would be encouraged. The father and mother, as teachers in the home, should teach their children to obey the commandment of God, “Honor thy father and thy mother; that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.” [Exodus 20:12.] By allowing their children to go on in disobedience, they fail to exercise proper discipline. Children must be brought to the point of obedience. Disobedience must not be allowed.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 15

Dr. Sanderson: You would not think an arbitrary obedience that was forced out of the children, without the heart being in it, would do any good, would you—when the individual did not see the right of it?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 16

Sister White: Are you speaking of a child?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 17

Dr. Sanderson: Do you think that forced obedience out of an individual, because an individual is so influenced that he has to obey and does not want to obey—do you think that does him any good?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 18

Sister White: Or separation?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 19

Dr. Sanderson: Yes.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 20

Sister White: Yes; it sometimes comes right to a point where you cannot force a grown person to any course of action, because God compels no one to obey Him. It is left for you to lay out the principles. If they refuse to accept the principles, then separate them from the institution. That is the course of action to take. But as I told the brethren in Los Angeles, discipline commences with the person. Parents must educate their children for their present happiness and for their future eternal happiness. Parents having first learned obedience themselves, they are prepared to bring up their children to obey strictly. No half-work is to be done. Children are to understand that they are to obey. When fathers and mothers discipline their children in the fear of the Lord, they may have a church in their home. Then they are prepared for the church, to have their names recorded on the church book, and to work in the church. Discipline in the church has been neglected, and neglected, and neglected, until there is existing a disorganized state of things which is not pleasing to God. Many names now retained on the church book should be dropped.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 21

Dr. Sanderson: I think that is true. It is pretty hard, though, when you get a child that has never been disciplined in the home, to discipline him in the church.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 22

Sister White: O yes; as I have said, the beginning is with the father and the mother; and when the father and mother discipline their children, then you can connect them with the church, and they will carry that obedience into the church. But so often they are allowed to go all haphazard, just as they want, saying, “I don’t want to.” When I was a child, when I was told to do something, sometimes I would begin to make a word of complaint, and would go out of the room. But I would be called right back, and asked to repeat what I said. Then I would repeat it. Well, then, my mother would take that up, and show me how I was a part of the family, a part of the firm; that I had just as much right to lift my part of the responsibility, as she had to take charge of me. She would carry that right out to the letter. I had my times now and then for amusement, but I tell you there was no idleness in my home, and there was no disobedience there that was not taken in hand at once.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 23

Dr. Sanderson: If our young workers had always had that discipline, our institutions would be altogether different. But we have to deal with young people and grown up people that have not had that discipline. That is what makes it complicated.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 24

Sister White: As those in the institution are nearly all believers, you should let them see that as they are professedly under service to God, you have the same responsibility as parents have over their children to require them to walk in the right way, according to the Word of God; and if they do not do it, why, then, it is of no use for them to stay there, and attempt to get an education, because it would all be false. They cannot get it without coming under discipline. Without a proper training they will never be of any service to God or to any one else; therefore obedience is a reasonable requirement for the benefit of both themselves and the institution.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 25

Dr. Sanderson: O, I think that is true.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 26

Sister White: There is where the heaven is brought into the family. If we ever unite with the family in heaven, we must begin that work of having a heaven in the home. We may have heavenly order in the family in our homes here below. I am instructed to caution parents never to punish in anger, never to raise the voice, never to let any passionate word escape their lips. I never allowed my children to think that they could plague me in their childhood. I also brought up in my family others from other families; but I never allowed those children to think that they could plague their mother.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 27

Never did I allow myself to say a harsh word, or to become impatient or fretful over the children. They never got the better of me once—not once. When my spirit was stirred, or when I felt anything like being provoked, I would say, “Children, we shall let this rest now; we shall not say anything more about it now. Before you retire, we shall talk it all over.” Having all this time to reflect, by evening they had cooled off, and I could handle them very nicely.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 28

Dr. Sanderson: I think we agree entirely upon the principles that ought to be carried out in the institution, and upon the education that ought to be given; and, of course—it always takes time, however, to make reforms, and to carry the people with you.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 29

Sister White: It takes a great deal of time, if they never begin. The time to begin is <at once>. If you wait, and wait, and wait, and allow disorder to come into the institution, and this disorder prevails, there never would be any reform in the institution. There are dispositions that must be handled. They must understand what the institution is—that it is something we are carrying on in behalf of God; it is a sacred place, and there are to be no side issues connected with it. The helpers are to come up to time, and to obey the rules of the institution, or else they can go somewhere else to get their education; because in an institution like this, where the influence of one will have an effect on the influence of another, a wrong, counteracting influence cannot be allowed, for this catching spirit of so-called independence would soon permeate the institution, making it an unmanageable affair. It would be a wicked thing to let it go so, because you are sanctioning wickedness when you do not take it right in hand and stop it right where it is. There is a solemn responsibility resting upon every soul working along educational lines. If we expect the Lord to co-operate with us, we cannot carry out our ideas, but must do what the Word of God tells us to do.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 30

Dr. Sanderson: You take Christ, the life of His disciples. Christ did not undertake in the early part of His ministry to change their lives all over. They carried habits and temperaments with them all the time Christ was with them, and Christ educated all the time; but He did not accomplish all that He wished to accomplish, even until He left them.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 31

Sister White: Not in Judas, He did not.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 32

Dr. Sanderson: He did not in Peter.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 33

Sister White: I know that. He did not in Peter. But He did in Peter until the great trial came. Peter was submissive to the Lord until the great trial came. There was nothing in John. When He reproved John for proposing to call down fire from heaven, and all these things, John repented, and so did Peter. Christ knew the awful trial was coming, and He told Peter all about how it would come; and Peter had a pretty sore time of it, I assure you, in carrying out his way. Of course Jesus did not force him. He let Judas have the whole education—but we have no need to bring up those things. Christ rebuked them severely. You know He again and again did it. He rebuked John, and rebuked Peter. He said, “Get thee behind me, Satan.” He had been trying to prepare Peter for the great trial. Satan was influencing the mind of Peter. Christ said the rebuke Peter gave Him, came from Satan. Said He, “Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me.” [Matthew 16:23.]16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 34

Dr. Sanderson: It seems to me that is the attitude always to take—to be in a perfect attitude where you can give perfect advice, and act with authority; but after Christ had educated them, after He had rebuked, He never attempted to do anything more than that with His disciples. It took them years in order to develop and see things as they ought to be seen. I think with young people—we have young people that come here with certain temperaments, and you cannot change those temperaments, if you try to—you have to expose those temperaments, and expose those lives, to Christian influences and to conditions by which they can gradually come to see their condition, and by which they will become transformed.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 35

Sister White: That is all that we have ever tried to do; but if they, after understanding plainly what the rules of the sanitarium are, go on the same way, not caring for the rules, then it is right to separate them from the institution, because not merely the one person, but the whole institution, is affected by the phase of character of that one person. That is how it is. All of the people—the whole class of students—are affected by the atmosphere which surrounds the soul of the one who will not come to the right terms.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 36

Dr. Sanderson: I think that is true. I think if there is a person there who is bound to take an independent course, independent of the atmosphere and the rules and regulations of the institution, they ought to be separated; and I have always thought this; only, what troubles me is to know how much leniency and patience we ought to maintain to some who may know well, and have not the power to do it.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 37

Sister White: Of course there is to be a dealing with them something like Christ has instructed us to deal with the church members. You go to them alone, and talk with them. If they will not hear you, then take two or three others. If they will not hear you then, then set them aside. Christ has told us what to do. He has given us our lesson.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 38

Dr. Sanderson: If those rules had always been carried out, there would have been a good deal better condition of things now.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 39

Sister White: Certainly there would be; but they have not always been carried out. These rules have been neglected.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 40

Dr. Sanderson: But they ought to be carried out in the right way.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 41

Sister White: There is a right way, and there is a wrong way. I never lifted a hand to my children before I talked with them, and if they broke down, and if they saw their mistake (and they always did when I brought it before them, and prayed with them), and if they were subdued (and they always were when I did this), then I had them under my control. I never found them otherwise. When I prayed with them, they would break all to pieces, and they would throw their arms around my neck, and cry like children. Edson ran in one day. “Come,” said he, “come, Mother, I want you to pray with me.” “Well,” I said, “what is the matter? What’s up now?” Said he, “My little cousin struck me, and I struck him back, and,” said he, “I’m afraid it will be written in the book. I don’t want it to be written in the book.” Well, I took him into the bedroom, knelt down, and prayed with him; and then he prayed. He asked the Lord to forgive him, and not to put it in the book. He seemed so afraid his mistake was going to be written in the book. He had heard me talk in meeting concerning the wrong deeds of persons being recorded in the book. He just cried, and broke all to pieces, saying, “Now, Mother, you don’t think it will be put in the book, do you?” Said I, “No, I know it will not be.” Then he was very much pleased. But <to punish with> passion, the jerking and twitching of children, and hurting them, bruising them, I cannot tolerate anywhere nor in any way.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 42

Dr. Sanderson: That passion that bruises children is the same thing as that impatience which becomes arbitrary and offensive to a grown person when you undertake to change them; and there is just where the difficulty in our work comes in. I have never been able to co-operate with that kind of discipline. I have never objected to anybody using that discipline, if they took the responsibility; but standing in the responsible position that I have, I have always taken the other policy—of trying to educate and get them to reform; and that is the only successful way I have found in changing anybody’s course and altering their condition.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 43

Sister White: A Christian would do that. There is no question about that. Christians who have an abiding Christ in them will never hurt and bruise the soul by their words, by their spirit, or by their actions. They never will do it.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 44

Dr. Sanderson: I think that everybody has to be moved by an inner Christian principle in the soul. If they have it themselves, they will discipline others in accordance with that; but for a person who has not that experience for themselves, to make another have an experience they think they ought to have, is always destructive work.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 45

Sister White: Yes; it always is, because they themselves must be ruled and controlled. When those, who in childhood have been uncontrolled and passionate, come to maturity, and attempt to govern children, that passion will fly out every time their way is crossed. It will come out in the teacher.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 46

Dr. Sanderson: Certainly.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 47

Sister White: Therefore it is the wickedest thing, I hold, for parents not to bring up their children in the nurture—there is a nurture to it—and admonition of the Lord.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 48

Dr. Sanderson: Now, the great difficulty of our institutions, and our work throughout the conferences, is the fact that people are set to work and set in authority that have not got that experience. They have a certain knowledge of the truth; they have a knowledge of a form of the truth, a form of diet, a form of reform, and they carry that out in form, and they try to have everybody else carry it out in form; but it does not work, and when others are told to do it, and do not see the heart and life in it, it is always destructive.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 49

Sister White: Yes; but you will meet that everywhere. You will meet it wherever you are. You will meet these negative, warring spirits everywhere, and if you let them have their sway, there will be great mischief done; but if you in the name of the Lord show them that that is not the right spirit, that you cannot have it—that it cannot be indulged, that things cannot be corrected in that way—that is what we should endeavor to do. There is one who goes into the fire, and another into the water. One will neglect to set things in order. They will think that they will give a lecture, or something, and that will set things in order. You have to come direct to the person, and ask them, “Why did you do that?”16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 50

Dr. Sanderson: Yes, I think that is true, that personal work is the only way to accomplish that.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 51

Sister White: Ask them, “Why do you do that? You know that is wrong, and why do you do it?” If they get in a passion, as I have seen, just as soon as the lines get loose, they do not know where they are going. I never allowed, in correcting my children, even my voice to be changed in any way. When I saw something wrong, I waited until the “heat” was over, and then I would take them after they had had a chance for reflection and were ashamed. They would get ashamed if I gave them an hour or two to think of these things. I always went away and prayed. I would not speak to them then. They would come to me, you know, about it. “Well,” I would say, “we will wait until evening.” At that time we had a season of prayer, and then I would tell them about it. Sometimes, as the apostle says, wrongdoers are to be rebuked sharply right on the ground, in order to give a right impression concerning such a spirit being exercised.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 52

Dr. Sanderson: It takes a good deal of discernment to understand those things ought to be rebuked sharply, and those things that ought to be dealt with leniently.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 53

Sister White: That is it. We must have an abiding Christ; and unless we have an abiding Christ, we shall be all out of line. In Addie and May Walling I had two of the most passionate children to bring up. Their mother kept a whip at the table, and I think there was not a meal eaten, but what that mother used that whip—a rawhide—on those children. I took them in my care, and brought them up. I never struck them a blow except once, and then it was because I could not help it. But I put out every kind of inducement to them. I would say, “If you do not show passion today, your uncle and I will ride out with you, and we can gather flowers,” and so on. Well, I would not say anything more all day. Then I would ask them about it. During the day I would see them throw themselves on the floor, and kick, and scratch, and then they would get their hands together and they would be ashamed It is a great thing to know how to do, but there is a way. When Satan is in the person, the one in error is to be rebuked right there, and there is to be no passing over the evil. It must be rebuked.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 54

Dr. Sanderson: O yes; I acknowledge that; and it ought to be done right at the time, too.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 55

Sister White: Yes.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 56

Dr. Sanderson: You expect to go away tomorrow morning?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 57

Sister White: Yes.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 58

Dr. Sanderson: I probably will not have a chance to see you again before our next board meeting.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 59

Sister White: Where will that board meeting be, I wonder? They said they were going to have it—it was appointed at San Francisco. If they could change it over to Healdsburg, it would save my going down. I could be at Healdsburg, and it is full as easy to hold it there as it would be in San Francisco.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 60

Dr. Sanderson: There are a good many things that are coming up. It ought to be over here, I think.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 61

Sister White: I could come up here, I think, if it were here. Of course I could come up. I want to be at the next meeting. I don’t know as I do, either. I don’t really care to. I would rather not. I would rather not be at the next meeting.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 62

Dr. Sanderson: We would be glad to have you there.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 63

Sister White: Well, I carry too much upon my heart. It hurts my heart.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 64

Dr. Sanderson: I am greatly perplexed to know what I ought to do, in the face of what you have said and written about my work. I have carried a great burden for the work ever since I have been there, and if I have failed in it in the way it seems I have, I do not think it is consistent to go on with it.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 65

Sister White: To go on with it?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 66

Dr. Sanderson: No. I have carried the responsibilities there for a good many years, and I have never had the sympathy and support of those who were with me. They have always looked on my work with suspicion, and they have thought that it was of a different stamp than ought to be there; and there has always been an effort to criticize in an underhanded way. People have not come to talk with me about the faults in my work.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 67

Sister White: I cannot endure anything underhanded. I cannot endure that kind of a thing. It is not a right thing to do. They should come right to you, and tell you in a proper manner what they have to say; but to go around to others, I do not believe in it.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 68

[Dr. Sanderson:] I have stood it for five or six years there, and the situation now—I do not know as it is any better than it has been; and if there are others who are better prepared to carry the responsibility there, I would rather they would.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 69

Sister White: Yes. One thing, I think you are not plain enough to come out and say what should be before the very persons themselves. I think you shrink from that. I know you do; and therefore things go as they should not go. They do not seem to—well, they look at it as a weakness in your managing. When something is wrong, that wrong must be remedied before the healing can come from the wrong; and there is a lack of carrying out the principles of faithful rebuking and reproving and correcting. All these things have to be done. You remember the charge given to Timothy: “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ ... preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and doctrine.” [2 Timothy 4:1, 2.] Well, this work must be done. It is not a pleasant work, I want to tell you—not a pleasant work at all. But still, these duties must not be neglected. It is doing a serious injury to a person to allow them to go on in a high-headed way, in a style of their own, for it is confirming in them a spirit which ought to be repressed in any of the workers or in any of the students who are trying to learn. That spirit will be met. Why? Because it was never met in their childhood. In church capacity it is very hard to do anything with those who were in their youth left to have their own way, carry out their own plans, and consult their own wishes.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 70

Dr. Sanderson: In your conversation the other day at the board meeting, in speaking of the responsibilities of medical superintendent, you expressed yourself quite strongly that in his work he was in a certain sense responsible for nearly everything in the institution.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 71

Sister White: That he was responsible?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 72

Dr. Sanderson: Yes.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 73

Sister White: Yes; he is.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 74

Dr. Sanderson: I could not understand the meaning of a statement like that, when you have written to me so many times that I must not undertake to deal with the management of the institution.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 75

Sister White: Well, as you did manage—when you stand as a manager, as you have done—it has been as a manager—although you may say others are chosen; but you have virtually been the manager, although you did not have the name of being a manager.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 76

Dr. Sanderson: In what way was I manager?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 77

Sister White: Because it was your mind that was carried out. That is how it was.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 78

Dr. Sanderson: Do you mean at the present time?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 79

Sister White: I mean it has been thus. I do not say just the present time, just now; but it has been thus. You have not taken the name of a manager, and yet you were the manager, and things went as you said. You were back of things. It may be said there were some things that went contrary, but generally they went as you said. You were virtually the manager in these things.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 80

Dr. Sanderson: You think it ought to be different than what it is at present? Do you think that the arrangement at the present time is a wrong one?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 81

Sister White: What arrangement?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 82

Dr. Sanderson: Do you think the organization of the work as it is at present is wrong?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 83

Sister White: I do not know what the arrangement of the work comprehends.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 84

Dr. Sanderson: It is practically the same now as it has been all the time. Brother Kilgore is manager, and I am medical superintendent. A manager has been there all the time. It is true, when they put Bowen in, he was a young man, and he did not comprehend the needs of the institution, and I had to do a good many things, because he did not know how.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 85

Sister White: That is it. You see, you were the manager. He consulted you in these things. He understood what your mind was, and he carried it out.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 86

Dr. Sanderson: O no; Brother Bowen did not carry out my mind a good part of the time. He did a great many things that I could not approve of in the least.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 87

Sister White: There may be some things that he did not do in harmony with your mind; but that was the general tenor of the understanding. But from the light that was given me, I felt decidedly that there should be one other physician there, and the patients should have more attention from the physician himself than they have had. They should have—16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 88

Dr. Sanderson: I have always said that, Sister White. I have always said that it was not my desire to have to devote my time to take care of the mechanical arrangements of the institution. It is not my desire, or my place, or my work; but, on the other hand, when I meet the patients, and see that they do not have the arrangements that it is necessary for them to have, I must do it. I see that they do not have what they should, and I have to educate the management, to get the necessary facilities. That has been the trouble ever since I have been there. I would go to any department of the institution—I would go to the culinary department, or to any other department—and would find that the people who had them in charge had no conception whatever of the necessities of those departments for the satisfaction and comfort of the guests.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 89

Sister White: That is why there should be no persons of limited experience and understanding placed as directors. No one should have taken Brother Bowen as a manager, because any such young person is not prepared for such work.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 90

Dr. Sanderson: They took him simply because they did not know who else to get at that time.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 91

Sister White: That is why they should have had at the very commencement—when Maxson came in there—they should have had—a firm, strong, decided man; but he would not have such; no, sir; he would not have a manager at all; he would not come in unless he could manage himself. So it was with Burke—just the same. The great mistake was in not having a fully authorized, appointed manager. If they had had one, the institution today would stand very much higher than it does. But he would not have one. He was going to be manager himself. He was fully sufficient and equipped, he thought, to be a manager. Well, he was out of his place in being a manager. It was not his place, nor your place—you are physicians. It is your business to take the physicians’ work. They should consult together—the manager consult with the physicians, and the physicians consult with the manager—and have a thorough understanding of how things should go. The physician should consult the manager in regard to the facilities that they must have in the sanitarium; and when the physician sees a lack, anything that is not as it should be, just communicate to the manager, and have a perfect understanding, drawing in even cords all along.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 92

Dr. Sanderson: Supposing your manager would not do that?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 93

Sister White: Well, if he is a sensible man, and understands the will of God, he will do it. There are some high-headed and strong-opinionated men who want to carry things. They will always be in every place; you will always find them; and they are difficult to handle; therefore it is essential that in all these places, men should not be put in positions to be eternally there. They should be put in on trial and test, and then it will soon develop whether they have the qualifications to stand in that position. If they have not the qualifications, that institution is not to go crippled and lamed all the way through. It is not to be so.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 94

Dr. Sanderson: But that has been the difficulty all through these years. There has been a manager there all the time during Dr. Maxson’s presence, and during my time there; and you recognize, Sister White, that the physician who comes in contact with the patients every day, to whom the patients come with all their complaints and all their difficulties—the physician can recognize and see the conditions that are most essential for the welfare of those patients a great deal better than anybody else; and if you can have a manager who is willing to consult, and is willing to take in the situation as it is, and will execute that management that will give to the patients what they should have, that is all right—that is where it should be.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 95

Sister White: Here is where we had the difficulty with Dr. Burke. He received into the institution several Catholic girls. The Crawford girls stood at the head of the nurses, you remember.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 96

Dr. Sanderson: I was not here at the time. I do not know anything about it.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 97

Sister White: Well, the Crawford girls stood at the head; and if they asked these Catholic girls to do something, they would sometimes take a notion that it was not the thing to do, and would go right to Dr. Burke and tell him all about it; and then he would tell them that he would see to that. Instead of telling them that they should do as they were directed to do in their service for the institution, as far as it was a right and consistent thing for them to do, he would pacify them, and say that he would see that the matter was attended to. Then they would write a note, and tuck it under the door of the [Crawford] girls, who had stood there for years at the head of the nurses who were there getting an education. These notes would say, “Dr. Burke is going to see you. He will see that you are ushered out of here pretty soon.” That is the language that was used. I myself saw one of the notes, so I know it was not a false report. They would slip the note under the door, giving them a threat, and Dr. Burke just dismissed these Crawford girls, and kept the Catholics.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 98

Dr. Sanderson: For a great many years there has not been a single individual taken into the institution as a nurse, or in any capacity, but what the matter has been carefully discussed by all the management together, and it has come as the united action of the management every time.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 99

Sister White: Yes. You see how miserable that was—Catholic girls were as high-headed as they could be, with their education and their Catholic theories! And they ruled out those who did not come in accordance with their mind. Well, then, the doctor came down to Healdsburg, and wanted me to come up here. Said I, “What do you want me to come up there for?” “I want you to come up so as to remove Sister Ings.” “Why, what has she done?” “Well, she does not treat the patients right.” I came up. I learned all about it. They had several patients, oh, the queerest set! Their course of action was such that no one could do anything to please them. They would complain to the doctor, and he would take every word they said. He had gotten it all “cooked up” that Sister Ings was to be turned out. I came up, learned these circumstances, and then asked him if he would not have an interview with me. I had an interview with Brother Gates’ sister. They were going to put in Brother Gates’ sister, and Sister Gotzian, as matron, and one who was to help him right along in the work. I asked them to tell me what Sister Ings had done, right before Sister Gates. They told me that they wanted something cooked, and it was not done just the minute they wanted it done, and then they went to Burke. There was nothing to it. I investigated it thoroughly. You see, if the physician would listen to all these little complaints of the patients, and to the prejudices that the devil puts into their minds because they do not love God and the truth, we would have a pretty upsetting of things. I took Sister Gates in, talked with her, and had it all through with her; but she was very much displeased and Burke abused me shamefully—not to my face, mind you, but he wrote to me a most abusive letter. I would not have written such a letter to a worst person who had ever professed to believe the truth. I have a copy of it now—the very letter he wrote me—because I did not agree with his plan of managing, and did not turn out Sister Ings.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 100

Dr. Sanderson: I think Sister Ings has been one of my most valuable workers all through the years that I have been here.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 101

Sister White: She is not a severe person at all. She is not one of that kind.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 102

Dr. Sanderson: She is not severe enough. She would do better if she would bring her girls to time.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 103

Sister White: That is all the fault I would find of her; and you have something of the same weakness too, have you not?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 104

Dr. Sanderson: Yes, I know.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 105

Sister White: It is about six of one and half a dozen of the other.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 106

Dr. Sanderson: When I was speaking of the patients, I was not speaking to find fault with my manager. But I could not see how you can have a manager here who is successful, unless he can listen to the physician sufficiently to bring about those things which will be for the welfare of the guests.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 107

Sister White: You could not make a decree like that, of the Medes and Persians.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 108

Dr. Sanderson: I want especially to get at the present situation, and I want to know—the essential thing is to know—what are the necessities of the institution.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 109

Sister White: But I brought these cases up to show how some patients are always disturbed, and think they are always neglected. They talk of your neglecting them.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 110

Dr. Sanderson: Certainly. I appreciate that.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 111

Sister White: There are some who have always been drawing upon others, and sapping, as you may say, the very life out of others. Well, they expect everybody is going to sympathize with them, and so on, too much. But a physician is in that position where those who are sick, think that that physician helps them. He is next to God to them; they have confidence that he can help them better than anybody else, because he does relieve their sufferings. This is the reason a physician can do more in spiritual things than almost any one else, because the patients look to him almost as their saviour. So it will help, if you launch out and give them a little sympathetic talk oftener than you do, and kind of assure them about themselves and how they are—I presume some cases are so that you can hardly give them encouragement.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 112

Dr. Sanderson: In some cases you cannot. You have got to be truthful. You cannot tell lies.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 113

Sister White: I know that. I remember <Dr. Burke> told a mother concerning her daughter, “There is no consumption about her. We will soon send her home to her husband;” and in just a few days she was past all hope. O, it was awful! O, it was awful! The mother was all in an agony. The doctor did not know what he was talking about. I was well acquainted with the family. To my knowledge there were as many as four cases that went down rapidly, and he told them to almost the last breath that they were going to get right up.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 114

Dr. Sanderson: I have seen a great many cases in his work just that way. I do not think that it is right. I do not think that a physician can be untrue, and make a success of his work.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 115

Sister White: Yes, but you do not know, you cannot tell, what a good work you can do. You can tell them that there is One higher than you who has control of their case; that we are going to do everything we can do for you, and we will pray for you, and work for you, and we will be very thankful if God will raise you up. You are too reticent on those things. It is best not to be quite so reticent. There is where some have made a mistake. It is not right for you to come in and say abruptly, “You are going to die; you cannot live”—unless it were such as the woman that died so suddenly from the result of wrong eating. Well, you knew that she could not live. To all appearances, her case was a hopeless one. I did not expect that she would die quite so soon.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 116

Dr. Sanderson: Those cases drop off suddenly, usually.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 117

Sister White: You told her that there was no hope, did you not?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 118

Dr. Sanderson: Yes.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 119

Sister White: Well, that is the way I think you ought to do.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 120

Dr. Sanderson: O, yes.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 121

Sister White: Well, this woman I was speaking of, was almost raving-distracted. I never saw a woman who was so raving-distracted as she was when her daughter was dying with consumption, notwithstanding they had told her that there was no danger of her dying. She did not live a week after he had told her that she would go back to her husband. There was no consumption about it, he said. He knew better, if he was a physician; he knew better than that.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 122

Dr. Sanderson: O, certainly.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 123

Sister White: Is there anything else you wish to say now?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 124

Dr. Sanderson: I just want to get thoroughly your ideas in reference to the management—the action that it is necessary to take. I recognize, Sister White, that what you have said is true, that I am responsible for a great many things. The very fact that I have accepted the position that I have held makes me responsible for the way things have gone; but, on the other hand, for a large part of the time, my hands have been perfectly tied. I could not do anything as it should have been done. I am unwilling to hold a position where I am to be held responsible for the way things go, and then have no voice to say how things ought to be.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 125

Sister White: There is a ground that should be considered. There is something there that ought to be considered and carefully reviewed. You have a responsibility, and others should not stand in your way, or stand as criticizers. They may get out of their place, and no doubt they have gotten out of their place. I do not doubt at all that they have gotten out of their place many a time in binding your hands. I have no question about it, because they are not capable men. They are not men who reason from cause to effect, and who understand the right relation that a physician should sustain to the institution. And while the cares and the responsibilities of outside things should not come on the physician, yet the physician should stand in a place where he is to be consulted in regard to what improvements are to be made, and what is to be done. He should have the confidence of those who are in any way bearing responsibilities. I do not think there has been a competent manager there—that is, since I have been here—who has been a suitable one, who understood how to manage. I do not think there has been.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 126

Dr. Sanderson: You have spoken several times about my relation with Brother Burden while he was there. Is it your conviction that he was a proper man as a manager there?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 127

Sister White: He was too narrow. He was too narrow to understand. He did not link up sufficiently with the physician to understand what was necessary for the good of the institution in the inside conveniences. He did not understand it. He was too narrow.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 128

Dr. Sanderson: You can appreciate how such a condition as that would tie the hands of a physician who was trying to do anything.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 129

Sister White: Yes, I understand that it is so; but the qualifications of the man religiously, and his integrity, were a great help, if he had only known more and understood better what was really essential for the facilities in an institution. It does not matter half so much what is outside, as what is inside.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 130

Dr. Sanderson: That is the trouble that we were in all the time. That is the trouble that Dr. Maxson was in. As physicians we stood there, knowing that certain internal conditions were for the welfare of the institution, but our hands were tied.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 131

Sister White: I do not justify that in any way.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 132

Dr. Sanderson: Yes.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 133

Sister White: Before Brother Burden went to Australia, I talked with him, and I have written since, that whatever was done, the physicians there—I had to give cautions there very decidedly; because of the peculiarity of things, I gave him cautions—I told them to receive him; and Dr. Kress, and the ministers, and all the brethren, are so thankful for that man. They do not have one word of complaint. And even the men themselves now—the doctor, and the one who was manager—have said that it was the greatest blessing that could come to them. That is how they have written in regard to Burden.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 134

Dr. Sanderson: He has had long experience. He ought to have developed some—16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 135

Sister White: The only thing—he took too narrow a view. I told him not to take too narrow a view. “But,” said I, “I feel more like telling you not to allow these men (Dr. Caro and the manager, Brother Sharpe) to carry out their ideas.” They wanted a large institution. Well, they have cut it down, and cut it down, and cut it down, and now they cannot finish it. I have raised money, and raised money, and raised money, until I have become about tired, and yet it stands unfinished now. There is nobody there they can call upon. Those who can give, have given. It is different from this country. Here there is a class who have been long in the truth. Those over there have just been born into the truth. They have had to build meetinghouses. We have as many as fourteen meetinghouses that have been built since we went there. It costs something to get the land and build the meetinghouses. It takes just double the price for the lumber, and double the work to put that lumber together.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 136

God will adjust all these things. They will come out all right. But I knew they needed just such a man as Brother Burden, and I am glad he went there. I am not sorry at all. But he connected with others. Said I, “You must connect with Dr. Kress, and with Elder Farnsworth, and with these men of responsibility. Every step you take, it must be before them. Tell them the ‘whys and wherefores,’ and let them harmonize with you.” Said I, “It must be so.” But they think that they have the greatest treasure in Brother Burden and his wife and her two sisters—they think everything of them all.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 137

Dr. Sanderson: What you have written so repeatedly about the management of the institution here being in the hands of somebody outside of physicians has led them to take extreme views. I do not think that you intended it so.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 138

Sister White: No.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 139

Dr. Sanderson: But it has made it awfully hard for the physicians.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 140

Sister White: Well, it is this way: The way Dr. Burke carried things, and the way Dr. Maxson carried things, it was not the right way. Dr. Burke, especially, would not have anybody but himself. He would have run this institution clear into the ground if I had done just as they wanted me to do—turn out all the old hands, and let others come in to run it.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 141

Dr. Sanderson: I never have asked for a change of managers. I never asked for Brother Burden to be removed. I have simply let the matter grow and develop and ripen itself. I have not asked the board to do any of these things. And now it puts me in a very embarrassing, hard position to understand how I can go on with my work, with the way you have written about my management.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 142

Sister White: About what?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 143

Dr. Sanderson: About my management.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 144

Sister White: Well, you are a physician. You are not a manager, and you should not undertake that work, because you have another work that demands all the time and attention that you can give. Then you will not have the responsibility of managing, and looking after these other things that have to be attended to. The experience that we have had in the weak management does not alter at all the fact that there should be a competent manager.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 145

Dr. Sanderson: That is true, Sister White; there is nobody who wants a manager any more than I do.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 146

Sister White: I was surprised to see young men in here as managers. Always, when I have had anything to say about it, I have advised that an experienced man be manager. They have had no such men here. They have had young men who had but very little experience. They might have done well in a food factory, or something like that. When there is so much to be considered—o, it has been bad not to have had an experienced manager! But Dr. Maxson would not consent to work, unless he could have control. They should have put in a strong manager, anyhow. They made a great mistake. That is the light I have had. They should have chosen as a manager one of the best men they could find. That is where they made a mistake—in giving the institution right up to Dr. Maxson, and letting him run it as he did, in a way that God could not endorse.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 147

Dr. Sanderson: Burden was manager all the time when Dr. Maxson was here.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 148

Sister White: All the time?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 149

Dr. Sanderson: Yes.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 150

Sister White: I understood that there was no manager.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 151

Dr. Sanderson: No; Burden was manager all the time he was here.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 152

Sister White: Your brother Dr. Maxson or yourself, were not qualified to be managers, either of you.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 153

Dr. Sanderson: During Dr. Maxson’s time here, I had no official relation to the institution. I was not an officer or a member of the board, or anything. I was simply assistant physician to Dr. Maxson. That testimony that you wrote to Dr. Maxson at the time he left was greatly perplexing to him, because you stated in that testimony a certain official relation that I held which he gave me during the time he was here, when I did not have any such position at all.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 154

Sister White: There is some misunderstanding about that, I am certain; because there was a movement made here, in buildings, and in things outside, that you were officious in, as well as he. There were things in the movements of things, that, whether you had the name of being a manager or not, there were things managed by you, and—16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 155

Dr. Sanderson: Do you know of anything that was—do you know what it was?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 156

Sister White: I cannot tell now. I do not know as I ever had anything specified about the matter. But if there had been a proper manager here, things never would have gone as they have; Maxson never would have ruled things as he did rule them; things would not have come in as he allowed them to come. O, the displeasure of God was upon this eating and drinking, and all this indulgence of appetite! The institution was managed for a while more like a great hotel than as a sanitarium. God did not endorse any such management as that.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 157

Dr. Sanderson: Do you approve of the manager that we have there at present?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 158

Sister White: Who is the present manager?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 159

Dr. Sanderson: Brother Kilgore.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 160

Sister White: He has just begun, you know. I do not know anything about his capabilities for this work.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 161

Dr. Sanderson: Did you have anybody in mind that you thought ought to be manager?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 162

Sister White: I did think of Brother Nichols. They spoke of Nichols. They said he had splendid faculties as a manager. I said if he had, “we would like to have him here.” But it seems that they want him in about four places, and he cannot be in all. They want him at the school being established at Berrien Springs, to see about putting up the buildings; they want him at Los Angeles; and they want him here. I thought he was coming, but his partner would not let him come. I thought he would be a good hand here. That is the only one I have thought of. Still, I have no knowledge from the Lord about it. Neither have I in regard to Brother Kilgore. Does Brother Fulton seem to be a good fit?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 163

Dr. Sanderson: He is doing good work in that department. I was in favor of his coming, because the culinary department of the institution has been in a very bad condition all the time. It is not my business, anyway, to give my attention to it, and the manager has not been able to build it up, and we have not had any one to see to this work.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 164

Sister White: The food, do you mean?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 165

Dr. Sanderson: O, the service, and the menus, and the food, and all.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 166

Sister White: Is the cook a good, competent person?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 167

Dr. Sanderson: O, he is not the best, but he is the best we can have.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 168

Sister White: I think he is the man who went around to the camp meetings to cook, when we were here ten years ago.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 169

Dr. Sanderson: I do not think so; I do not think he has been in the truth that long.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 170

Sister White: He is not the one I had in mind, then.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 171

Dr. Sanderson: This man is a very experienced cook, but he got his experience outside of our institutions, and he has not given the best satisfaction in certain lines. That is, he is not an expert in cooking vegetables, and getting things up in nice shape, which is very essential in an institution of this kind.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 172

Sister White: It is very essential.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 173

Dr. Sanderson: Yes, it is.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 174

Sister White: And the foods that are to be brought together can be put together in a way to be palatable, and they can be combined in a way that makes them unpalatable.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 175

Dr. Sanderson: He makes things more palatable than any cook we have had for a long time, as far as that is concerned.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 176

Sister White: I think that is considerable, so that we can educate away from the meat diet.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 177

Dr. Sanderson: I think that is the only way we can educate away from it. The cooking and the menus and the service have improved a great deal since Brother Fulton came.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 178

Sister White: For a time in Avondale we had a man cook. O, the food was nice! Everything came on so tasteful. There was no meat at all. He had kept a large restaurant.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 179

Dr. Sanderson: I do not think it would be a difficult matter to do away with meat, providing we got everything just perfect without it. But the trouble with our cooks in our institutions—and it is more so with our people throughout the denomination—is, they have left off the style of cooking that they used to have, and left off meat, and they are cooking things so tastelessly and so insipid that there are lots of our people who are starving to death.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 180

Sister White: I acknowledge that. I have written thus to Dr. Kress. I told him that as a physician he should understand when his blood was getting impoverished. “Now,” said I, “if God spares your life through this attack, don’t you ever bring yourself into that position again. Never say that persons must not eat any milk or any butter or any eggs or anything of that kind.” Said I, “Just keep that to yourself; do not come out with such statements. People have to be educated by degrees; and these are the least harmful of this kind of food—if you know you have got pure milk and eggs.” “As to butter,” said I, “I do not hold to it. I do not put it on my table at all, and only use it sometimes in cooking, when we have no cream or milk. I use that in cooking, but we do not put butter on our table.” But I told Dr. Kress, “You must not tell the people that they must not have milk, or they must not have so and so. The time will come when they cannot have these things, but do not make a time of trouble beforehand. Do not tell them they must dispense with milk and cream and all such things, because the poor people have to have something to live on, and they cannot provide themselves with these health foods; for they are not able to.” I know about this extreme that you speak of. They have not, it is true, the faculty to put foods together to make them palatable, and then they say, “I am starving to death on the vegetarian diet.” They would not need to starve to death, if they only knew how to prepare the foods properly. They have to learn how. Someone should educate them. I have a cook here from Battle Creek. She knows how to put these things together. She does not have to do it so much while we have everything from the garden, like green corn, you know, and these things that come off from the ground. We have enough to eat, with bread and fruit and such things; but the time will come in the winter when we shall want these dishes. But I have a good cook. When I was at the doctor’s home in Battle Creek, she put things together as I had never seen them put together, and they were tasteful, palatable.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 181

Mrs. Sanderson: Maybe she might help our cooks at the Sanitarium.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 182

Sister White: If I can spare her, I would like to have her come in and show how she does these things. I would like to have her do it.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 183

Mrs. Sanderson: That is what is very much needed there.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 184

Sister White: When I was at Cooranbong, many that were great meat-eaters came into my family, and when they would sit at my table, they would say, “Well, if you have food like this, I could do without meat.” I think that our food satisfies our family. I tell our family, “Whatever you do, do not get a poverty-stricken diet. Place enough on our table to nourish the system. You must do this. You must invent, and invent, and study all the time, and get up the very best dishes you can, so as not to have a poverty-stricken diet.”16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 185

Dr. Sanderson: Do you think that Dr. Rand ought to take the position as superintendent of the work out here, when he comes?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 186

Sister White: Well, Doctor Kellogg thought that he would be qualified to do that—that he would be of the best service in doing that. He would work here, but he need not stay here all the time. He would go out around, going to different places. Then he would come back to the institution; and then you could go, taking the same round, or some other round. You would have a chance to get out, and not to be confined. That is the most I heard talked of, that there should be an equality—one should go out, and then the other should go out, to form an acquaintance with others, and to educate, as well as to be here at the Institute.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 187

Dr. Sanderson: The doctor thought he would want to superintend the institution, if he came out, did he not?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 188

Sister White: I did not hear anything about it.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 189

Dr. Sanderson: You said that Dr. Rand thought he would work in the best capacity if he was superintending the work here, did you not?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 190

Sister White: (Note: I conversed with Dr. Kellogg, about Dr. Rand’s ability, and loyalty, and the position he should occupy, but not with Dr. Rand.) I do not recollect what was said. But that was what we thought. We talked it over with Dr. Kellogg, and he thought that he was a man qualified to stand in a leading position. That is the recommendation that was given by him.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 191

Dr. Sanderson: Well, I certainly do not want the position, if I am not the person for it. It is not anything that a person needs to crave.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 192

Sister White: Your position as a physician is appreciated; and yet if we had the two physicians, and one who could go out some, I think it would bring in more. Do you not think it would?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 193

Dr. Sanderson: O yes, I think there ought to be more experienced physicians there; certainly.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 194

Sister White: To go out, and then let the other take his turn, and go out, and that will keep it so that there will not be a constant wear on the very same nerves, and the very same kind of work. We must broaden. We must get out. We cannot stay huddled right up here in a little shell. We should become acquainted with the outside element, and educate, and try to get these principles that we have, before the people, so that they may know what to expect when they get here. I felt very desirous that those who came in here should see reform right through; and I think it will come around. I think that when there is the least patronage, when it comes down to the smallest patronage, that is the best time to make a change in the matter of serving meat to patients; and yet I cannot say that there never should be any meat served. I cannot say that. Yet I have said it at our institutions that have just begun. They called in Dr. Caro and Dr. Silas Rand to advise with me as to whether they should allow meat to be served on the dining room table. Said I, “Not a particle is to be introduced, not a particle.” I desired to have them understand it. Well, they have had the most wonderful success in the recovery of the sick that I have ever seen in any institution in my life. They have not a particle of meat served in their dining room.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 195

Dr. Sanderson: What do you think ought to be done up here?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 196

Sister White: O, I think it should be ruled out of the dining room. I do not advise any rash movements. I do not say just how that should be brought about. I think the meat diet should be kept off from the table. How is it? Do the helpers have any meat on their table?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 197

Dr. Sanderson: No.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 198

Sister White: Well, I think it should be kept off of the table just as soon as it is possible to do it, and there should not be a long waiting, either. There will be times when there will not be so many here, will there not?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 199

Dr. Sanderson: Last winter it was just about as full all through the winter as it was in the fall.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 200

Sister White: It was? I hope it will be so. But there must be an educating, and more force in the education. They are just about through with the meat in Battle Creek institution, I think.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 201

Dr. Sanderson: O no; they have it. They had it there when I was there last spring.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 202

Sister White: Yes, they do have it, but not so much as formerly.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 203

Dr. Sanderson: We do not have it here as much as in the past.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 204

Sister White: I suppose they call for it? Or is it put on the table?16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 205

Dr. Sanderson: They put it on only when it is asked for—at the special request of the patients.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 206

Sister White: The Lord is best pleased when they let this meat alone. There is reason for it now. If there ever were a reason for its use, it was to shorten life; but now there is the best reason to let it alone, because of the disease of animals, and on that score the question can be taken up, and it will have great effect.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 207

Dr. Sanderson: Well, I probably will not see you again before the board meeting; and if you have anything for the Board, anything that you wish to express to the Board as to what you want to have them do, I hope you will speak to them about it. I shall show to the Board that communication that you wrote to me. You sent that to the managers. If you have anything further that you would like to write them, I would be glad if you could do it.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 208

Sister White: Yes, I have some things, if it is possible for me to get them off. I do not know as it is, before I leave. ... It may be that we can get together so as to have a little talk before the meeting. I would rather have a talk with you before we enter the board meeting, if I have anything to present. I do not know where that board meeting is going to be held. There are three places talked of.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 209

Dr. Sanderson: I have no feeling about your saying anything you care to, to the Board, independent of your talking with me. As I told you, if I am not the person for the place, I certainly do not care to carry the responsibility.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 210

Sister White: Yes. And when it comes to the things in the sanitarium that are necessary, and that are wanted, you should not be at all delicate to state those things right out, what is wanted, and see that the necessities are supplied. That is the physician’s privilege and right.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 211

Dr. Sanderson: That is what I have been trying to do for ten years; but it has always been denied until lately. For the last six months, I have had things as I wanted them, largely. The institution has prospered during that time.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 212

Sister White: As soon as I went through the bathrooms, I said, “You have not done your duty here. You will have to have different facilities.”16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 213

Dr. Sanderson: I have worked for two or three years to make those changes, and I was fought at every step by the managers.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 214

Sister White: It is a pity that things work in that way, because inside we give the treatment, and the conveniences should be on the inside. The outside can go very well, if there are some inconveniences there; but when the patients come to get treatment, and have to pay their price, they should have the very best conveniences that are possible; and I know that there has been great dissatisfaction. I have heard them talk, while coming up on the boat. I have heard them say things. They did not know, of course, that I had any connection with the sanitarium, or they would not have said what they did in my hearing; but they did say these things.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 215

If I do not go to Healdsburg tomorrow, there are some things I may want to say before I go.16LtMs, Ms 82a, 1901, par. 216