Report of the Interview

Brother and Sister Mackin stated that they had felt impressed by the Holy Spirit to make a special trip West in order to interview Sister White regarding some unusual experiences through which they had been passing. During the week of prayer nearly three years before they had united with their little church at Findlay, Ohio, in a special season of seeking God for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.3SM 363.3

Ralph Mackin: In the week of prayer reading for that year, every article was directed to the people to seek for the Holy Spirit. We set aside in our little church three days for fasting and prayer, and we fasted and prayed for three days—that is, not constantly together, but we felt the need of a deeper work and felt the necessity of coming into possession of more of the Spirit of God. We began to study from that time on the work of the Holy Spirit, from the Bible and the Testimonies, And especially from volume 8 and volume 7, and Early Writings, and also the little book made up of a collection of leaflets and entitled, Special Testimonies To Ministers and Workers. This we found to be a most precious volume to us. It shows how in times past men who had been called of God were treated, et cetera.3SM 364.1

The message that the Lord gave me particularly was to follow the life of the apostles....3SM 364.2

Several scriptures were then read, including Luke 24 to the close of the chapter, ending with these words:3SM 364.3

“And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: and were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.”3SM 364.4

Now, I teach that this blessing is the blessing of sanctification that they received, that He bestowed upon them; and when we seek God—if we are a sinner, until we are converted; if we are converted, then we put up the prayer for the power of sanctification to live clean, wholesome lives. Not that it is the work of an instant; not “once sanctified, always sanctified”; that is not true. But we should so firmly and eagerly put up our petition that we receive the blessing. It has the same physiological effect on us—oh, we just want to praise Jesus, and it makes us so loving and gentle and kind. But we notice that the disciples were not ready yet to go out with that blessing to do work for the Master. He told them to tarry until they were endued with power from on high. Then we put up our petition and hold right on by faith, and that which encouraged us to do this was the chapter entitled “the shaking time” in Early Writings—we hung right on by faith, until great drops of sweat stood on our brow. Believing that the same power that the disciples had was for us today, we were encouraged to hold on.3SM 364.5

Experience Recorded in Acts 2 Repeated—When that promised blessing came on us, as we put up our petitions to God, we had the same experience as recorded here in Acts 2 in regard to the apostles. When that promised power came upon us we spake in other tongues as the Spirit gave us utterance.3SM 365.1

In Toledo, when we were bearing our message on the street, a man who was a Polish Catholic stood on the street when Mrs. Mackin was speaking; and as the Spirit of God came upon her, and spoke to them through her in another language that she could not understand, this Polish gentleman exclaimed, “I know what that lady is speaking. She is speaking in my own tongue of a calamity which is soon to be visited on this city.”3SM 365.2

Alleged Foreign Tongue—In other instances, when one comes into this blessing of speaking with tongues, the Lord may give me the same tongue, and we may hold a conversation in the language that the Spirit of God may have given us utterance in. Even three or four may take part in the conversation, and yet it is a foreign tongue to them, and one waits on the other until the other is through; and it is all in order. This is the experience we received, according to the promised blessing....3SM 365.3

If we are in a delusion, we are honestly there. But if this is from the Spirit of God, we want to follow it....3SM 365.4

This Spirit tells us to search the Word: tells us to be earnest; and tells us to be careful about our diet; tells us exactly what you have said.3SM 365.5

Gift of Prophecy Claimed—Now, my wife, the Spirit operates through her, and we believe that this is the gift of prophecy that is to be poured out onto all flesh. This Spirit leads us into kindness and purity of life, and we can't understand it—why—only that as the Word of God has said, that these experiences come as the result of receiving the blessing of the Spirit of God3SM 365.6

The Camp Meeting Experience—Before we went onto the campground—we did not go until Friday—my wife and two other ladies (my mother, and another lady, Sister Edwards, a sister-in-law to the president of the conference)—before we went upon the campground this last year, they three were seeking the Lord. I had gone downtown on an errand; and the Spirit of God told her (Mrs. Mackin) to go on the campground, and there sing; and there He would tell her what to sing.3SM 366.1

And she wept just like a child, and just seemed like she could not stand it because that the Lord showed her the condition of our people—soon the plagues would fall, and they were unready. There was no meeting in progress, and the Spirit of the Lord came upon her as she went onto the campground, and (turning to Mrs. Mackin) you may tell her what words you sang.3SM 366.2

Mrs. Mackin: The Lord put this burden upon me. I could not stand it. I wanted to tell it so bad, and sing that song so bad. And I could not get rid of it till I would do it. “Oh, pray,” says I to Sister Edwards; and so I stood on the campground, and I sang just what the Lord gave me. The Lord—this is what I sang:—“He is coming; He is coming; Get ready; Get ready.” And then that statement in Early Writings—3SM 366.3

“How many I saw coming up to the falling of the plagues without a shelter. Receive ye the Holy Ghost.” These are the words I sang. I sang them over and over again. They could hear it all over the campground, and they came together; but before that, the Lord showed me how they would wring their hands as the plagues were falling. The Lord can show anything in just a moment, better than He could tell it to us. And so He showed me how they would wring their hands, and that put on me a greater burden than ever. Well, that is when they arrested us....3SM 366.4

It is when the singing is extemporaneous—dictated by the Spirit—that it is the most wonderful.3SM 367.1

If you have any light for us ...3SM 367.2

Ellen G. White: I do not know that I have anything special that I could say. There will be things that will transpire at the very close of this earth's history, it has been presented to me, similar to some of the things that you have represented; but I cannot say anything on these points now.3SM 367.3

R. Mackin: Is there any question, Brother White, or anything now?3SM 367.4

W. C. White: I do not know as there is anything more than to pray that the Lord will give Mother some word, and then take time for matters to develop. It is better, in presenting anything to her, to present the subject briefly and clearly, and then perhaps have another interview with her later on.3SM 367.5

R. Mackin: We are fasting and praying. If we are in a delusion, we want to know it, just as much as if we were in the right.3SM 367.6

Mrs. Mackin: Our brethren certainly think that we are in a delusion.3SM 367.7

Ellen G. White: What place was this that you speak of, where this singing was?3SM 367.8

R. Mackin: Mansfield, Ohio, at the camp meeting.3SM 367.9

Ellen G. White: Our people—Sabbathkeeping people?3SM 367.10

R. Mackin: Yes, our own people.3SM 367.11

W. C. White: Was that verse that Mrs. Mackin sang last night extemporaneous or a known hymn? [At the prayer meeting in the sanitarium chapel Brother Mackin had given his testimony in the praise service and was followed by Mrs. Mackin, who sang.]3SM 367.12

Mrs. R. Mackin: Oh, that was one of our published hymns. It is in the new Christ in Song.3SM 367.13

R. Mackin: From hearing that you could scarcely gain an idea of her singing when the words are given to her by the Holy Spirit. The most wonderful thing is when she sings “Glory!” She says when she sings it she seems to be in the presence of Jesus, with the angels. She repeats the word “Glory!” over and over again. She has been tested with the piano, and musicians say it is a freak—the lowness and the highness with which she does it. She cannot do it only as she prays in the Spirit and special power comes upon her.3SM 367.14

Mrs. Mackin: We don't have this power, only as we seek Jesus.3SM 368.1

Casting out demons—R. Mackin: The Lord has given us power, Sister White, to cast out demons. Many people are possessed with demons. I remember a statement you wrote a few years ago that many were possessed with demons as verily as they were in the days of Christ. When we are in a meeting, and these demons are in a meeting, they may cause people to do queer things. I noticed in the Bible when Jesus was in the temple that demons at once came out. “Hold thy peace, and come out of him.” The Lord instructs us to lay the people down, lest the demons throw them when they come out. We found in the beginning that when we begin to rebuke these demons they oftentimes close the eyes of these people, and will sometimes cause them to bark like a dog, and stick out their tongue; but as we continue to rebuke them, why, the eyes open and they become calm, and the demons -----3SM 368.2

Now it is through the gift of the Spirit that the Lord tells us when the demons are gone, that they are all gone. One lady in particular had six demons, and she said she just felt them when they came out—it just seemed to pull her in every part of the body.3SM 368.3

But our brethren say that they can't be in the last days; but we find that it coincides with just what the Saviour said in the last chapter of Mark, in that great commission: “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;” and so on.3SM 368.4

Mrs. Mackin: We did not get this all at once, either.3SM 368.5

R. Mackin: Read the remaining verses of Mark: “And these signs shall follow them that believe; in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, He was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.” Our experience, so far as we are able to discern, corroborates with the Bible. Here is something that I would like to read [Here Brother Mackin read extracts, including the following, from an article in the Review and Herald, by Sister White, published in the issue for April 11, 1899, and entitled, “The Newcastle Camp Meeting”]:3SM 369.1

“During the night of the first Sabbath of the Newcastle meeting, I seemed to be in meeting, presenting the necessity and importance of our receiving the Spirit. This was the burden of my labor—the opening of our hearts to the Holy Spirit.”3SM 369.2

[No record was made by the stenographer as to the exact place where Brother Mackin began reading this article, and where he ceased reading; but at least a considerable portion was read.]3SM 369.3

What Is the Evidence?—R. Mackin: In connection with the receiving of power from on high there is a question, it seems to me, just as pertinent now as in the days of the apostles—What is the evidence? If we receive it, will it not have the same physiological effect on us as it did back there? It can be expected that we shall speak as the Spirit gives us utterance.3SM 369.4

Ellen G. White: In the future we shall have special tokens of the influence of the Spirit of God—especially at times when our enemies are the strongest against us. The time will come when we shall see some strange things; but just in what way—whether similar to some of the experiences of the disciples after they received the Holy Spirit following the ascension of Christ—I cannot say.3SM 369.5

R. Mackin: We will continually pray to the Lord about this, and ask Him to give you light in regard to it. So I leave you our address, and if you have anything for us after this, we shall be glad to receive it.3SM 370.1

W. C. White: You will probably spend a few days here, will you not?3SM 370.2

R. Mackin: If the Holy Spirit tells us that our work is done now, we will go; if He tells us to tarry, we will tarry. It leads us. As I have presented this message to different congregations the Spirit of God has witnessed to it, and many weep, and they say, “Oh, we need power, we need help, and this is the power promised, and let us seek God.”3SM 370.3

Mrs. Mackin: The real test is love—1 Corinthians 13.3SM 370.4

R. Mackin: Satan wants to hinder this work. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. I present it from Early Writings when the angels are about to loose the four winds, Jesus gazes in pity on the remnant, and with uplifted hands cries, “My blood, father, My blood, My blood, My blood!” He repeats it four times; for His people are still unsealed. He commissions an angel to fly swiftly to the four angels holding the four winds, with the message, “Hold! Hold! Hold! Hold! until the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads.” And as I bring these things before the congregation it is the most earnest and devoted ones that it seems to affect, mostly.3SM 370.5

Ellen White Recounts Early Experiences—Sister White then began talking, and continued for about half an hour. She told incident after incident connected with her early labors shortly after the passing of the time in 1844. Her experiences with unusual forms of error in those days in later years led her to be fearful of anything savoring of a spirit of fanaticism.3SM 370.6

As Sister White continued, she told of some who had strange exercisings of the body and of others who were governed largely by their own impressions. Some thought it wrong to work. Still others believed that the righteous dead had been raised to eternal life. A few sought to cultivate a spirit of humility by creeping on the floor, like little children. Some would dance, and sing “Glory, glory, glory, glory, glory, glory,” over and over again. Sometimes a person would jump up and down on the floor, with hands uplifted, praising God; and this would be kept up for as long as half an hour at a time.3SM 370.7

Among those who took part in these extraordinary forms of fanaticism were some who had once been faithful, God-fearing brethren and sisters. The strange exercisings of body and mind were carried to such lengths that in a few places the officers of the law felt compelled to restrain them by casting them into prison. The cause of God was thus brought into disrepute and it took years to outlive the influence that these exhibitions of fanaticism had upon the general public.3SM 371.1

Sister White further told of how she was called upon repeatedly to meet this fanaticism squarely and to rebuke it sternly in the name of the Lord. She emphasized the fact that we have a great work to do in the world, that our strength with the people lies in the power that accompanies a clear presentation of the Word of the living God. The law of Jehovah is to be exalted and made honorable; and the various features of the third angel's message are to be plainly outlined before the people that all may have an opportunity to hear the truth for this time and to decide whether to obey God rather than man.3SM 371.2

If we as a church were to give place to any form of fanaticism, the minds of unbelievers would be diverted from the living Word to the doings of mortal men, and there would appear more of the human than the divine. Besides, many would be disgusted by that which to their minds seemed unnatural and bordering on the fanatical. Thus the proclamation of the message for this time would be sadly hindered. The Holy Spirit works in a manner that commends itself to the good judgment of the people.3SM 371.3

An Interesting Proposal—in the midst of Sister White's account of her early experiences with fanaticism Brother Mackin made the following proposal:3SM 372.1

R. Mackin: If we would now have the spirit of prayer, and this power would come upon my wife, would you be able to discern whether this was of the Lord or not?3SM 372.2

Ellen G. White: I could not tell you anything about it. But I am telling you these experiences in order that you may know what we have passed through. We tried in every way possible to rid the church of this evil. We declared in the name of the Lord God of Israel that God does not work through his children in a way that brings the truth into disrepute, and that unnecessarily creates deep-seated prejudice and bitter opposition. In our work we must take a straightforward course and seek to reach the people where they are.3SM 372.3

Rebuking Fanaticism—R. Mackin: I remember reading very much of this in volume 1 of Testimonies for the Church—your experience in rebuking fanaticism, and of the cause in the East when they set the time, in 1855, I believe.3SM 372.4

Ellen G. White: Some would dance up and down, singing, “Glory, glory, glory, glory, glory.” Sometimes I would sit still until they got through, and then I would rise and say: This is not the way the Lord works. He does not make impressions in this way. We must direct the minds of the people to the Word as the foundation of our faith.3SM 372.5

I was but a mere child at that time; and yet I had to bear my testimony repeatedly against these strange workings. And ever since that time I have sought to be very, very careful lest something of this sort should come in again among our people. Any manifestation of fanaticism takes the mind away from the evidence of truth—the Word itself.3SM 372.6

You might take a consistent course, but those who would be influenced by you might take a very inconsistent course, and as a result we should very soon have our hands full of something that would make it almost impossible to give unbelievers the right impression of our message and work. We must go to the people with the solid Word of God; and when they receive that Word, the Holy Spirit may come, but it always comes, as I have stated before, in a way that commends itself to the judgment of the people. In our speaking, our singing, and in all our spiritual exercises, we are to reveal that calmness and dignity and godly fear that actuates every true child of God.3SM 372.7

Dangers That Threaten Now—There is constant danger of allowing something to come into our midst that we may regard as the working of the Holy Spirit, but that in reality is the fruit of a spirit of fanaticism. So long as we allow the enemy of truth to lead us into a wrong way we cannot hope to reach the honest in heart with the third angel's message. We are to be sanctified through obedience to the truth.3SM 373.1

I am afraid of anything that would have a tendency to turn the mind away from the solid evidences of the truth as revealed in God's Word. I am afraid of it; I am afraid of it. We must bring our minds within the bounds of reason, lest the enemy so come in as to set everything in a disorderly way. There are persons of an excitable temperament who are easily led into fanaticism; and should we allow anything to come into our churches that would lead such persons into error we would soon see these errors carried to extreme lengths; and then because of the course of these disorderly elements a stigma would rest upon the whole body of Seventh-day Adventists.3SM 373.2

I have been studying how to get some of these early experiences into print again, so that more of our people may be informed; for I have long known that fanaticism will be manifest again, in different ways. We are to strengthen our position by dwelling on the Word, and by avoiding all oddities and strange exercisings that some would be very quick to catch up and practice. If we were to allow confusion to come into our ranks, we could not bind off our work as we should. We are trying to bind it off now, in every way possible.3SM 373.3

I thought I must relate these things to you.3SM 374.1

R. Mackin: Well, now, that which you have stated does not correspond with our experience. We have been very cautious in this matter, and we find that the experience through which we have passed, and which we have endeavored to outline briefly to you this morning, tallies exactly with the experience of God's servants of old as given in the Word.3SM 374.2

Ellen G. White: During the years of Christ's ministry on earth godly women assisted in the work that the Saviour and His disciples were carrying forward. If those who were opposing this work could have found anything out of the regular order in the conduct of these women, it would have closed the work at once. But while women were laboring with Christ and the apostles, the entire work was conducted on so high a plane as to be above the shadow of a suspicion. No occasion for any accusation could be found. The minds of all were directed to the Scriptures rather than to individuals. The truth was proclaimed intelligently, and so plainly that all could understand.3SM 374.3

Now I am afraid to have anything of a fanatical nature brought in among our people. There are many, many who must be sanctified; but they are to be sanctified through obedience to the message of truth. I am writing on this subject today. In this message there is a beautiful consistency that appeals to the judgment. We cannot allow excitable elements among us to display themselves in a way that would destroy our influence with those whom we wish to reach with the truth. It took us years to outlive the unfavorable impression that unbelievers gained of Adventists through their knowledge of the strange and wicked workings of fanatical elements among us during the early years of our existence as a separate people.3SM 374.4

Be Guarded—R. Mackin: Well, now, this that you are giving us, would this be considered testimony under the Spirit, or is it simply counsel—of relating your experience?3SM 374.5

Ellen G. White: I am giving you history.3SM 375.1

R. Mackin: But you do not say that that applies to our case now, until you have further light on it?3SM 375.2

Ellen G. White: I could not say; but it appears to be along that line, as I am afraid of it. It appears to be along that line that I have met again and again.3SM 375.3

W. C. White: It is now twelve o'clock. Would you not like to rest before dinner?3SM 375.4

Ellen G. White: Well, I could not let you go before I had said what I have said. I would say: Be guarded. Do not let anything appear that savors of fanaticism, and that others would act out. There are some who are eager to make a show, and they will act out whatever you may do—whether it be of the same tenor or not. I have been very careful not to stir up anything like strangeness among our people.3SM 375.5

R. Mackin: But it is true that when the Holy Spirit does come, as is stated in your works, that many will turn against it, and declare that it is fanaticism?3SM 375.6

Ellen G. White: Of course they will; and for this reason we ought to be very guarded. It is through the Word—not feeling, not excitement—that we want to influence the people to obey the truth. On the platform of God's Word we can stand with safety. The living Word is replete with evidence, and a wonderful power accompanies its proclamation in our world.3SM 375.7

R. Mackin: Well, we must not tire you.3SM 375.8

Mrs. Mackin: Praise the Lord!3SM 375.9

Ellen G. White (rising, and shaking hands): I want the Spirit of the Lord to be with you, and you, and me. We are to be just like God's little children. The power of His grace must not be misunderstood. We must have it in all meekness and humility and lowliness of mind, that God may make the impression Himself upon the minds of the people. I hope the Lord will bless you and give you a solid foundation, which foundation is the Word of the living God.—Manuscript 115, 1908.3SM 375.10